RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:01 AM): Indeed, I've tried to rethink the text as per Rob's advice but I'm not sure how successful I've been

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:02 AM): HI folks! Boy it sure can be difficult getting back up to speed after a wacky holiday week....

Tamra (tamra@hcstudios.com) (7/8/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:02 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:02 AM): Here in the USA, it was two days on, one day off and then a Friday when work seemed optional for most people....

Jeffrey Schlesinger (Sales@tracertags.com) (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): another weekend of drinking tequila?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): I wish.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): Hello Rob, I enjoyed it so much last time I've come back for some more advice if that's alright?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): NO problem, john.

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:03 AM): Good morning all

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:04 AM): Good Morning

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:04 AM): I thought long and hard about trying to rethink the site from the users perspective, could you have a look and tell me how well/badly I did?

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): Well how about that Pledge, eh? One Nation, under the ACLU....

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): it WAS a wacky weekend for me too! Spent the entire time trying to upgrade to Win XP....

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): Keith, are you new here? WE always try to let the new guys go first....

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): oops www.fatfriar.com

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): Skip, if you had a Mac you would have spent 5 minutes....tee hee

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): i second that one

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:05 AM): sorry did I try and jump the queue?

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:06 AM): Skip, you sell more of your soul and privacy to Microsoft every time you upgrade...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:06 AM): No John, you can go first if Keith isn't jumping in. I just wanted to invite him.

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:07 AM): No, I'm not new, but thanks though

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:07 AM): ok thanks and sorry, need a rules file for us newbies :-)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:07 AM): Keith, would it do any good to tell you to have Michael call me?

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:08 AM): thanks rob....that's comforting!!! :-)

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:08 AM): As I was saying I thought long and hard about trying to rethink the site from the users perspective, could you have a look and tell me how well/badly I did? www.fatfriar.com

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:08 AM): Okay, so who's up first? John you want to start it off?

Jeffrey Schlesinger (Sales@tracertags.com) (7/8/2002 9:09 AM): Rob,

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:09 AM): Lyman: I don't know about selling my soul....that company made me a lot of money as a client about 10 yrs. ago when I lived up there.....

Jeffrey Schlesinger (Sales@tracertags.com) (7/8/2002 9:09 AM): Rob, Are giveaways a good idea to promote your brand ?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:10 AM): John, you say "Web sites and integrated systems at reasonable prices by people who care about what they do." But that still doesn't address your prospects' problems clearly. It tells us about what you have, but what about what THEY are looking for?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:11 AM): My lovely bride is always telling me how I drive her nuts because I constantly tell her to "give me specifics" whenever we argue. People need specifics to understand and personalize your comments.

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:11 AM): Entered the room.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:11 AM): I thought that's what most of my clients want

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:12 AM): Entered the room.

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:12 AM): it kicked me out, I told Mike Rob (FYI)

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:12 AM): so if I know what they want how do I couch it more clearly?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:12 AM): Also, I would warn you to NOT mention prices on the first page. 200 pounds is 200 pounds, but it can mean too much to some people, too little to others. First sell them on needing what you've got. THEN worry about price once they understand they need you.

Mark (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): John, what is it that you think your clients want most?

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): John, it doesn't tell me what I get when I deal with you. Does it increase my biz? My profit? Time saving? what?

Jonathan (jacohen@damnfinewriting.com) (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): What's their biggest complaint in your business?

Elizabeth (7/8/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:14 AM): I wondered about that , Price does seem to be such a powerful decider

Mark (7/8/2002 9:14 AM): re: www.fatfriar.com - Link to Byford is broken on the two other portfolio pages

Jonathan (jacohen@damnfinewriting.com) (7/8/2002 9:14 AM): [morning all]

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:14 AM): ACK! JOHN!!!! "Price strategy is NO strategy" The whole point of branding is to give them other reasons besides price to base their decision.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:15 AM): Let's go back to the basics: What's their biggest complaint in your business?

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:15 AM): My clients want a site that will add value to their business without costing them a fortune

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:15 AM): Forget price. Anyone can and will cut your price, even if it means they take a loss to get the business.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:16 AM): what if he highlights the 'adding value to their business' but expanding on that with specifics?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:16 AM): Fine. Now tell them how you'll add value to their business without costing them a fortune

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:16 AM): Bennett, you're right on, fella. You're going where we need to go.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:16 AM): I guess sites that are overpriced and don't address their specific requirements

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:17 AM): John et al: You've got to realize (and the tapes go into this) that 99% of people's conversational content is meaningless. So when you really articulate with specifics, you come across much more powerfully.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:18 AM): I'd also drop the 'growing our business' while it's true, you want them to think you are worried about solving their problems and not your own

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:18 AM): so I need to be specific about how having a site built by me can improve their businesses?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:18 AM): John, forget what others are doing, Most of them are doing it way wrong anyway. You just do the stuff that works and let them worry about their own issues. For now, tell your prospects specifically how you're going to add value. That's what they want to hear.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:19 AM): Mr. Bennett, I was trying to show that I have an incentive to give them the best service

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:19 AM): Rob, when you are done with John, I have a related question.

AnneWenzel (7/8/2002 9:20 AM): Entered the room.

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:20 AM): Friar: what I am learning here with Rob F. is that there is an education process that must happen, a bonding of your solution to their problem, then toss in some free content to build your credibility and then selling you as the only solution....

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:20 AM): your incentive should be, at least in their eyes, adding value for the fact that your in business implies that you are building a business. I'm not sure you have to actually say it literally. rob, your thoughts on this point?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:21 AM): John, they know your incentive, and it's nice -- but it's not important to them. They're interested in solving your problem. There's plenty of time to communicate your pathos in the way you communicate with them. They'll get that story through the language and graphics you use to help them solve their issues.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:21 AM): So how can I be specific about benefits when the clients business makes such a difference to what benefits I can deliver?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:22 AM): John, just stick to helping them selflessly. Then give them specifics about how you'll do that and how nobody else can.

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:22 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:22 AM): John, I offer clients a broad solution. But it's only after we begin a dialogue that I customize the specific solution for them

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:23 AM): Friar: the key issues that people looking to build web sites are: can I trust you? Will you take care of me? What is your track record? Will you be here in the future? Are you good at building web sites?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:23 AM): Keith, what did you want to ask?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:23 AM): Well said, Skip. I agree

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:23 AM): So should I be providing generic statistics on e-business to encourage them to get involved, like I've seen on other sites?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:24 AM): BTW, John, this is VERY difficult to do by yourself. For everyone, including me.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:24 AM): No John, you should be reviewing the most common complaints you've heard from prospects and addressing those.

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:24 AM): I totally second the difficulty point!!!!

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:24 AM): Thanks Rob I was getting a bit worried :-)

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:24 AM): Here is my question: It seems that the comments previously were directed at having John change the text on his site to reflect what his company can provide his clients. My research shows, however, that people do not actually read textual information since they regard it as "false marketing". In other words the average consumer knows you are trying to "blow your own horn". What else could John or us do to on a web site to increase branding, without regard to textual information?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:26 AM): Keith, that's not been my experience. But I know what you mean. You're referring to sites that sell hard, usually with no brad strategy. My site has lots of text and it does well. It depends on what's motivating your text. Those long copy "here's why you should buy my stuff" are very self serving and a turn off

Jonathan (jacohen@damnfinewriting.com) (7/8/2002 9:26 AM): Keith - I'd argue that people only regard text as 'false marketing' when it's written in traditional company-speak. Check out the Cluetrain Manifesto http://www.cluetrain.org for more information. People want to be talked to as part of a natural conversation, not press release style.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:26 AM): visually, john needs to make the name of his group more prominent. showing samples of your work also speaks volumes about what you do, especially if you can provide links.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:26 AM): My point to John is that the topic of his text is(1) about FatFriar, not prospects problems and (2) very generic and non-specific. Those are two big problems

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:27 AM): Rob, I'm glad you brought that up: showing samples of work only helps if it immediately illustrates how you solved a problem. otherwise it's just eye candy

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:27 AM): Entered the room.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:28 AM): Rob you've just said I'm very generic but earlier you said you offered a broad service, how do I identify the difference?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:28 AM): So Keith, it's not the length of the copy, but what the copy says and how it's written that counts

Jennifer (7/8/2002 9:29 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:29 AM): John, on my home page, I tell people very quickly that I help them realize the revenue they thought they were going to get when they started their businesses. That resonates with everyone who would buy my services. Mainly people who invested into their businesses but have seen disappointing results.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:29 AM): Then I offer illustrations of the various ways I do that, along with tools they can use themselves.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:30 AM): I give them advice, articles, before and after case studies, samples....you name it.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:30 AM): So would you advise one case study that illustrates a specific problem solved over many that show different styles for well known clients?

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:30 AM): My question was, setting copy or textual information aside, what else can we do?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:31 AM): Keith, now you can see why brand is so important. It gives you something to talk about, a reason why they should come into the fold. Without it, you're simply peddling a commodity with no instinctive difference

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:32 AM): So you MUST begin with a solid brand. I promise you, everything else will flow from that in a way nobody else will be able to duplicate.

Peter Clough(peter.clough@novakbirch.com (7/8/2002 9:32 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:32 AM): Jeff, what did you want to ask?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:32 AM): Entered the room.

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:33 AM): you want to make your site as EASY as possible to navigate/understand for your customers

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:33 AM): Remember the Ultimate Goal: "I know that others are half the cost, but nobody can do this the way <FatFriar> can!"

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:33 AM): John-- I just relocated a site that has an outstanding presentation of user benefits and discreet, effective navigation to them F5.com in particular note the "Products and Services" page ...http://www.f5.com/technology.html

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:33 AM): someone once said "perfection in design is when you can't remove anything else"

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:34 AM): Schlesinger? You still with us?

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:34 AM): the i-legions site is so simple, its a great example www.i-legions.com

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:35 AM): Rob, if Jeff is gone, I have a question.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:35 AM): Okay, Anita, let's go with you:

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/8/2002 9:35 AM): Lyman: I have a former colleague who works for F5: do you do consulting for F5?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:36 AM): if there's time, i have a question as well...

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:36 AM): A couple of sessions ago, we talked about an ebook I could do on top SEO scams

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:36 AM): Thanks guys I'm very grateful

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:36 AM): no connection, soul or otherwise ;^)

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:37 AM): What sort of topics should I cover?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:37 AM): Search engine submission scams come first to mind.

Marc (marc@l-i-s-t.com) (7/8/2002 9:37 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:38 AM): Good question, Anita. As you know, I've written a lot on my experiences with paid engines, so I think there's a lot of mythology and truth to be hashed out there. One thing I might suggest is to double your content instantly by writing on what's true, as well as what's a scam. It will allow you to inject our wisdom and value.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:38 AM): Does offering a free report from your site help with branding?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:39 AM): Anita, I offer all sorts of free stuff, mainly in the way of articles and archives. People pay for the e-books (as noted in this morning's FrankelTips) as part of the strategy

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:39 AM): I planned on writing about the truth versus the fake.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:40 AM): Anita, I wouldn't hesitate to name names, either. Take on the big guys that you think are crooks, hold up the really good services that you think are under-served.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:40 AM): For the submission scams, I am already doing that in my newsletter.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:40 AM): Here's something else to really consider: devote some content to doing it yourself. not because you think it will work, but too often, people feel the need to try it themselves -- and fail -- before they call you.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:41 AM): This is a BIG factor in my business. People just feel the need to try it themselves. So I give them all the tools they think they need plus some they never thought of.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:41 AM): With the submission stuff, I go to the website and check out their search "engines" first.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:41 AM): Rob would that apply to my business too?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:42 AM): Thanks, rob!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:42 AM): Anita, don't worry about already published stuff in your newsletter. In fact, you can collect all your newsletters and make those into an ebook. This is what I now do with FrankelTips instead of posting archives.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:42 AM): Yes John, I would because it would help you refine your approach and focus on THEIR problems.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:43 AM): Philip, you have something?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:43 AM): my company is Andrews/keys associates (www.andkeys.com) we've built a good client business over the last 12 years - what's interesting is that over all this time, we still have customers who aren't aware of all the services we offer - I'm having a hell of a time communicating and therefore upselling - any ideas?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:43 AM): Lastly, John & Anita, don't be afraid of giving away information. Your doctor could tell you how to take out your appendix, but even knowing how you're not going to try it yourself.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:44 AM): Philip, what do you perceive to be your main business and what do you want to upsell them to?

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:44 AM): Rob, sometimes you have t try things just so you can be sure you are not being "Taken to the Cleaners."

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:45 AM): we're a communications design company (electronic communications, print communications etc) we also do events, video and direct mail - -no advertising

The Franchise Doctor (7/8/2002 9:45 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:46 AM): What do you want to upsell them to Phil?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:46 AM): I'd like them to understand that one communications tool can lead to another as part of an ongoing communications strategy

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:46 AM): Philip, is all that info on your web site?

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:47 AM): so, you're saying that their relationship with andkey should be ongoing and will thus be mutually beneficial?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:47 AM): I think so...www.andkeys.com

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:48 AM): Okay, Phil, then I have to ask you this question: why doesn't your site stress the TOTALITY of communications in the way you just said it? As is, your company appears to offer a menu of items. I think the cohesion is what's lacking here.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:48 AM): Nowhere do I see the message of "how one thing works with another and another...."

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:48 AM): I suspect this is all a part of your presentation, too. Do you have any case studies where one client's brand is strung through different communications?

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:48 AM): I guess I want them to understand it intuitively : )

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:49 AM): i think Phil could benefit from the "textual" conversation earlier we had

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:49 AM): Phil, are some of your clients currently involved with an "ongoing communications strategy" provided by you, and others are not?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:49 AM): Phil, where I come from, men are shot for relying on clients to understand things intuitively....

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:49 AM): good point - -- perhaps a graphical linear example of how a full "program" might work?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:50 AM): it's almost natural to place things in a silo, especially on the web where one is used to a button for this and a button for that

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:50 AM): Phil, you THINK your main goal is producing communications materials. your REAL task is educating clients. once you educate them, they'll buy

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:50 AM): yes! graphical = good

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:50 AM): and I'd back up any graphic with a case study of a program you have done

Keith (http://www.phpappserver.com) (7/8/2002 9:51 AM): enjoyed it, gotta go to lunch, bye everyone!

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:51 AM): I deal with a lot of MarComms. hard to educate them when they think they know it all to begin with

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:51 AM): Let's get one thing straight: NOBODY understands or has an interest in understanding things intuitively. For one thing, most people don't have the intuition and secondly, almost none have the interest UNTIL YOU POINT IT OUT TO THEM

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:51 AM): exactly...you must move from selling communications design to selling added business value thru communication design coherence, etc

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:51 AM): TEN MINUTE WAARNING

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:52 AM): that brings up an interesting point, how do you educate clients that you are a part of their business strategy and not just a 'production' function?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:52 AM): Philip, welcome to my world! Most PR and ad agencies -- even client's internal staffs -- see me as a threat. part of my education to them is "I'm not here to do anything but make you a hero."

jimi (jimi@webiliciouc.co.uk) (7/8/2002 9:52 AM): Entered the room.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:52 AM): yes please I'd like to know that too

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 9:53 AM): To educate clients, use bullet points, i.e. "85% of web users use search engines"

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:53 AM): Rob, it lies in the realization that these people contacted YOU for a reason. They need the help. Of course, that doesn't mean their egos aren't conflicted with that message. Because to admit you need help means that you failed in some part.....

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:53 AM): yep, that's the perception - -that's why it's worked for me to be the "designer" type and not spout too much strategy

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): Remember, that 99% of the clients we get are on someone else's payroll. To admit they need help is to say to their boss "I can't do my job."

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): but design is so integral to that strategy and that's what i find difficult to 'teach' our clients (internal)

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): But the first impression I get of Philip's homepage is that of image advertising, not the David Ogilvy Direct Marketing approach, there is much that is communicated about your ability to communicate in all that white space and non-use of mouseovers, etc. The message is the medium is the message is the medium...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): Phil, then that's the tack you should take. Use the "totality" approach to show them how THEIR ideas can be evens stronger.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): So words like help, assist etc. would be good here?

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:54 AM): try seeing yourself as a communications design consultant...that will allow you to jump off into how your services will expand your clients' businesses...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:55 AM): Lyman, Philip doesn't do advertising

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:55 AM): so make them the hero by asking....?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 9:55 AM): i think partner would work better than assist.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 9:56 AM): partner=noun not verb

Lyman Stucky (LStucky@ix.netcom.com) (7/8/2002 9:56 AM): no but he is trying to communicate to his clients that he can help them communicate....

Philip Andrews (7/8/2002 9:56 AM): thanks for this, it's been a help

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:56 AM): John, if we get very specific, get specific. "help" doesn't do it. Too generic. Phrases like "ensuring brand consistency throughout all media" starts to make a dent

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:57 AM): I'd make it even plainer than Rob put it.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:57 AM): The nest exercise I can suggest is having a talk out loud with yourself (making sure nobody thinks you're nuts) and listening to yourself explain why and how you're the best solution.

Peter Clough(peter.clough@novakbirch.com (7/8/2002 9:57 AM): partner used to be just a noun - it has undergone the American cultural verbification

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:57 AM): Then write it down

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 9:58 AM): as in, "i believe we can *partner* to ultimately improve your whatever..."

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 9:58 AM): "We ensure your brand is consistent in everything you do"

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 9:59 AM): I'm telling ya, the more specific you are the faster the sale. People need to recognize themselves in your suggested solutions.

Peter Clough(peter.clough@novakbirch.com (7/8/2002 9:59 AM): "form a partnership" " Be a partner" are more better

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Bye, people. Have to clean up my office!

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Yes, that's what I meant. Thanks, Peter. Brevity sometimes doesn't translate well.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): "are you looking for a partner who can help you realise real benefits from the internet...?

Peter Clough(peter.clough@novakbirch.com (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Now this is great - People need to recognize themselves in your suggested solutions. - excellent thought!

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Take care Anita

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Cool, peter. Finally made myself useful!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): Okay, really good session today. Thanks everyone!

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 10:00 AM): That works great, John.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/8/2002 10:01 AM): I'll see you online!

weber jajagroup.com (7/8/2002 10:01 AM): Take Care

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks Rob and everyone lots to think about again :-)

Brett Stuckel (bstuckel@mail.colgate.edu) (7/8/2002 10:01 AM): thanks all

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/8/2002 10:01 AM): thanks rob and group. hope everyone has a good week.

Fatfriar (John.Anslow@Fatfriar.com) (7/8/2002 10:03 AM): See you all next week for the next thrilling installment of "Fatfriar Gets its message right