RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): Hey, everyone! Good morning -- or evening, as it may be for our UK friends....

Jonathan (jacohen@damnfinewriting.com) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): hi Rob

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): hi

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): oops pardon refreshed and it sent the message again !

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:00 AM): Hey Friar, don't sweat it it. We have people coming in from all time zones.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): Rob, I decided to intro myself on FrankelBiz after reading the Tips.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): Fatfriar, have you been here before? I don't recall seeing you. But we always let the new folks go first, so feel free to jump in.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): Hello from the UK

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): i didn't realise I was supposed to put my mail addy in my name either, it's john.anslow@fatfriar.com btw

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): morning everyone!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:01 AM): Jimi and Rob, same for you. Just jump (in order) so that we get to your stuff before the hour is up.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): yes this is my first time, I'm a bee virgin :-))

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): Why FatFriar?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): fat kid at school syndrome

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): Okay John, well this is where you go from a boy to A MAN!!

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): ok Frank. Being my first time, I'll probably just observer wide-eyed.

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:02 AM): microwave is broken?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): Jimi, you can call me Rob.....

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): John, read Eat, Drink, and Be Merry by Dr. Dean Edell.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): I firmly believe that adults always remember being fat, small or poor for their whole lives

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): wow at last !

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): I am so sorry, Rob.

crystal (crys@crystalhillmedia.com) (7/1/2002 9:03 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:04 AM): So to paraphrase Abbot & Costello, Who's on First?

crystal (crys@crystalhillmedia.com) (7/1/2002 9:04 AM): sorry I'm late

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:04 AM): I'm interested in views of how to properly visually translate a strong German brand in the US? Is that within the bounds of the clinic, since this is my first time?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:04 AM): Of course, 'cause that was the name hung on us at school.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:04 AM): am on the atkins diet now thanks, lost 4 stone last year !

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:05 AM): Yes, Rob, go ahead. Give me some details

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:06 AM): Incidentally, almost ANYTHING that will help your business is permissible here. That's why we're here.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:06 AM): I'm a sole trader looking to build my business before my house is repossessed, do you have any quick start tips for a newbie?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): What's the German brand?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): Well, because our business is financial/institutional everything is being pushed as blue and one typeface. Your essential cold, unfeeling bank. With a logomark, designed in the 70's, that's strong in Europe but has little equity here.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): John, what's the business you're trying to build?

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): Dover sole? fried, perhaps?

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): Entered the room.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:07 AM): Deutsche Bank. I'm head of design for the institutional business (asset management) and we are currently developing our

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:08 AM): Rob, that's really funny -- because it's usually the Europeans that complain about how culturally insensitive AMERICANS are in Europe.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:08 AM): oops...revised global identity standards.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:08 AM): sorry I'm another web developer/manager that got made redundant

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (7/1/2002 9:08 AM): Howdy folks...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:08 AM): Rob, your mission is a tough one. You have to convince them that brands are rooted in culture and that all cultures carry their own non-rational baggage. Just the fact that it's German makes a statement to people

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:09 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:09 AM): So before you can recommend ANY solution off the standard blue thing, they have to understand where and why they need to transition.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:09 AM): 7 years in development and I can't get anyone to look at me, so I'm scratching around doing small sites for small businesses when I can get them ! see www.byfordfloraldesignstudio.com

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:09 AM): Here in Baltimore DB has just wiped out over 100 years of perfectly good branding by changing the Alex Brown investment bank name to Deutsche Bank

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): To simply barge into a market with a brand that hasn't been tuned to that market is suicide.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): fatfriar my husband has the same problem

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): John, take a look at the site, Guru.com

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): NOT a popular move.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): This is an example of the mentality I face...our logo is very wide and would not fit onto a golf ball. I suggested a stacked version of the logo and Frankfurt came back with 'that would confuse the brand and the employees'

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:10 AM): and our house is about to be taken :-(

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): Right Peter, really dumb decision to do it that way. The correct way would have been to leverage the Alex.Brown name into DB

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): hi all

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): Our newest question will be what does DB do with the Scudder brand they just bought.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): Still getting the business in?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): Entered the room.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): rob, what's the protocol re: asking questions?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:11 AM): Well, they did maintain the Alex. Brown name for the brokerage.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:12 AM): Rob, they're right -- but realize they're talking about logo and not about branding, which shows just how uneducated even the biggest names in finance can be when it comes to branding.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:12 AM): Don't change the Scudder brand name.

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:12 AM): if the Alex Brown debacle is any indication they will trash that too

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:12 AM): Rob, I expect that they'll roll over Scudder just the way they rolled over Poland. Sorry, just had to say that!

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): direct e-mail question here

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): The problem may be due to history rather than culture.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): But you get my point. You're dealing with people who have little, if any, concept of how powerful brands can be. My bet is that each acquisition will lose its value quite rapidly, as Americans flee to competitors.

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): ROFL Rob...

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): specifically, about pricing

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:13 AM): Americans tend to be ethnocentric

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:14 AM): Any Fawlty Towers fans here? Whatever you do, DON'T MENTION THE WAR!

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/1/2002 9:14 AM): Fawlty Towers is one of my favorites

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:14 AM): Yes, we do. But I want to make sure that whatever decisions we make have flexibility for regional variances which what Frankfurt is showing us does not. Global brand or not, there are realities that one look may not work in all our markets.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:15 AM): Actually, Americans being a nation of immigrants, tend to be much more accepting and less xenophobic than others. But we can't tolerate narrow-mindedness and bully tactics.

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/1/2002 9:15 AM): ...especially from outside

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:16 AM): Rob, I'm afraid DB is on a crash course with disaster. This is not uncommon, incidentally. Especially with big brands that believe their own press, denial plays a major role. Just look at WorldCom here in the USA.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:16 AM): DB would be best served by having Rob come over and talk to Frankfurt.

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): You go, Anita!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): Arrange the meeting and I'm there!

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): But, WorldComm stock was dropping steadily before the mess

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): no doubt Anita!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): That was a You go girl, not a "you go by yourself", Anita!

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): ?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:17 AM): You'd have to call on a higher authority

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:18 AM): Anyway, Rob, if it's down to a logo issue, you need to realize you're simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. They're obviously headed for a big fall and my guess is that the head of acquisitions there will be out of a job within 12 months.

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): transferred to the Russian Front!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): For your own peace of mind, do whatever they want. They're likely to be too late to save. And more importantly, it's clear they're interested in listening to your educated point of view. In short, you can't stop a client intent on destroying himself.

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): Who's up next?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): European companies taking over American brands takes a long time for acceptance

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:19 AM): No, it's really not just a logo issue. It's a whole corporate identity based on one color and one 'look' versus a more flexible approach allowing more color and a little more variation so that our materials don't look like a cookie-cutter approach.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:20 AM): rob, I'm eager to ask something

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:20 AM): Thanks, Rob and Group

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:21 AM): Go ahead Anne

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:21 AM): any tips for me rob?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:21 AM): I've got a 25,000 name e-mail list

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:21 AM): oriented to peer to peer software development

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:21 AM): basically an enterprise IT list

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): Rob, they're going to globalization, which in their minds, means uniformity. Totally wrong. It's like Americans who think globalization means Americanization.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): John, you're after Anne, okay?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): I just got off the phone with a potential customer

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): the customer said they just rented CIO mag's 5,000 name list

mark (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): rob, I would like to ask a question as well

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): thanks

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:22 AM): for --get this--$300

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): Mark, you go after John.

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): 300 per thousand?

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): Whoa!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): So what's the question, Anne?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): all of the prior feedback I've gotten suggests that prices aren't quite THAT low out there

mark (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): sure,

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:23 AM): any feedback on how to sell the list, where, and what pricing is supported these days?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:24 AM): Anne, are you asking what your 25K member list is worth?

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:25 AM): very surprised by that CIO rate - aren't they a ZD property?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:25 AM): CIO is an IDG property

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:25 AM): I was frankly astonished

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:25 AM): I hear that $150 CPM, at least, is a bare minimum for IT lists

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:26 AM): IDG has a similar rate card mentality... I have paid over 400 for some IT lists. didn't like it.. but i did..

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:27 AM): Anne, this should show you that media people will sell anything to anyone for any price. Forget what IDG does. Their lists are garbage anyway. I can't tell you how many "free" subscriptions are offered to me, just for taking the time to fill out their survey.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:27 AM): You have to realize that list rentals are ancillary revenue to them, not primary. As such, the names on those lists are very low quality.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:28 AM): okay

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:28 AM): well, Rob, "controlled circulation" is the way with most of the trades

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:28 AM): Your list, assuming it's all opt in, should command a much higher price IF -- and this is a big IF -- your names aren't just IT hobbyists, but real decision makers.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:28 AM): Ann, try a search on Google, under "mailing list rentals".

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:29 AM): rob, what's an IT hobbyist?

Peter Clough (peter.clough@novakbirch.com) (7/1/2002 9:29 AM): try www.emailresults.com as well

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:29 AM): yes, it's all opt-in

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:29 AM): peter, thanks -- I will (taking notes)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:29 AM): A hobbyist is someone who belongs because that's what they do, not because they're in charge.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:30 AM): you mean a staff person rather than an exec?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:30 AM): they don't count as influencers?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:30 AM): More importantly, Anne, if you have the kinds of stats I have for FrankelBiz, it gets MUCH easier to sell the rental. A FrankelBiz sponsorship goes for $1K a week...mainly because we get outrageous response rates

Frederick (bspage.com) (7/1/2002 9:30 AM): Anne, remember, your list is opt-in to you, but it will not be opt-in to anyone else.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:30 AM): Right, Anne. Staff is important, and if you pitch them right, even better than the CIO because the staff is down there in the trenches, recommending solutions to the CIO

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:31 AM): that's who's on my list, primarily

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:31 AM): and my experience as a researcher is that they effectively make many of the important decisions

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:31 AM): So your real work is matching up clients to your member base.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:31 AM): I need to get some programming done to collect the right info -- anyone up to doing the job for a song?

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): you, fatfriar?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): thanks

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): John, your question?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): just to reiterate my problem, I have the skills but not the clients

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): yes rob, that makes sense

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/1/2002 9:32 AM): depending on what language you need programmed, I've got some great talents...

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): anyone interested please mail me at the address you see

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): friar, you need an account exec

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): though bear in mind we're an extremely shoestring-type company

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): and what are those skills, John?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): John, what's your biz? Why should we hire you?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): I need to get some work in before I hit bankruptcy

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:33 AM): so, rob, you think I can sell for higher than $300?:-) if I get the right stats at least?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:34 AM): Well I have over 7 years experience developing sites for companies like Reuters Sedgwicks and Cricinfo

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:34 AM): Yup, Anne, I do...but only if you show ROI (return on investment) that are reasonable.

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 9:34 AM): Entered the room.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): I have an online portfolio at www.fatfriar.com

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): John, your site is very anonymous....and you should really think about a different name.

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): sure

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): That's what you do, not why someone should hire you. (Rob: training marketing for tech firms is all I do, is a small plug for a free report ok?)

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): how do I get the first customers before I can show ROI?

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): hey Rob, is your email working ok?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): Ah, you're in the UK too!

azieger@peertopeercentral.com (7/1/2002 9:35 AM): Michael, perhaps you can I could talk?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:36 AM): When I go to your site, it's very non-human, with a few stock photos that don't hit me where I live. I need to know THE MINUTE I GET there why you're the best solution to my problem.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:36 AM): Yes, Skip, it is.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:36 AM): I'm currently redesigning the site to give it a more human face

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:37 AM): fatfriar: Try to get more work from abroad. The UK market for any sort of IT/programming services is very very very bad at the moment.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:37 AM): I tried to show in the text what makes me different

Skip Pratt (skippratt@cox.net) (7/1/2002 9:38 AM): just wanting to make sure you were getting mine....

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:38 AM): where do i get it though, that's one problem

Ben Woodward (perpetuainteractive.com) (7/1/2002 9:38 AM): Fat: You gotta hit 'em upfront. The details in the text will only be read by the folks who get past that important first impression.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:38 AM): john, I'd also avoid stretching images. the distortion is visually jarring and a turn-off. probably too much text on the home page.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:38 AM): Also, your name has to figure differently. If you're intent on using it, then really use it. Otherwise, left by itself it carries negative implications. Make it fun and it might work.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): The new design is much friendlier

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): Right now, there's no reason for it being there, and as I say, if it isn't helping, it's hurting.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): fatfriar -- text seems very generic to me. A little too stuffy (then again, I'm in America, not UK, so maybe it's a cultural thing).

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): and put your copy through a spellchecker.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): John, go to www.techniquelle.com, go down the front page and check out my Jobs page. I have a lot of freelance sites there.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): This might not help you in your line of work, but a friend of mine wrote articles for e-zines, and built up a promo site with free PDF reports and stuff, and people read them, were impressed, and gave him real work!

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): Anne, http://www.techprofitsystems.com/ or E-mail mcage@michaelcage.com (I'll remember to put my E-mail in my nick next time... <grin>

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): thanks Anita I will

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:39 AM): Rob Bennett brings up a good point: the stretched image actually detracts from your presentation as a pro....it's the little things like that that undermine people's presentations of themselves.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): I guess I'd better come back after I've redesigned the site then

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): I'm curious to know why Steve made the comments about the spell checker

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): John, I STORNGLY urge you to post something to the FrankelBiz community to get some work in the short term. Make deals and do what you can to make it work, It's a great group.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): Make sure you use PayPal too. A lot of people like to pay that way. I get a lot of my money from clients through it!

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): because the pages have lots of typos -and it's not the US vs. UK stuff

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:40 AM): Personally, I have everyone pay through credit cards, but that's another issue

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:41 AM): Rob I've been a bit shy about doing that until I was happy with my site

does PayPal come across as non-professional? (7/1/2002 9:41 AM): Entered the room.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:41 AM): Ok, Steve, just curious. I hadn't read it thoroughly myself

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:41 AM): John, phrasing like "we aim to become the foremost supplier to small businesses in the UK." are very generic. Anyone can claim that. You have to give us a reason why your way is the ONLY way.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:42 AM): Another problem I have with your site, is that you said you're a developer and you have lots of blue-chip experience.. yet you're distinctly targeting small businesses. I think you should be hitting the sort of clients you want to get, and that you have the experience with.. not just the small businesses to 'tide you over'

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 9:42 AM): I'm very good at finding other people's spelling goofs, Jimi. <G>

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:42 AM): John, you've got to build your brand from the outside in. As long as you build it from the inside out, you'll remain inaccessible to the market. It's about THEM.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:42 AM): Then I'll surely keep you busy, Steve. :)

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:43 AM): Peter's point is valid, although we all know that the higher up you go, the longer the sales cycles are.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:43 AM): Whoever asked about PayPal... if you're in the UK and doing work for people in the US, it's the best way. I used to have checks sent to me and it took FOREVER, and PayPal is cheaper than wire too, so clients love it. Of course, don't use PayPal if you can avoid it, but for international stuff, it's a godsend!

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:43 AM): I am targeting the small business end because there are so many companies already targeting the medium to big end

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:43 AM): John, do you find it difficult to get clients, full stop, or do you get them, then struggle with competitive pricing

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:44 AM): Rob I don't understand your last comment

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:44 AM): the point is John, that if you're good, your website is actually hiding that fact. break out of the self-conscious mode and realize that your website is NOT a presentation, it's a sales tool. Sell. And sell hard, with good reasons why they should buy.

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:44 AM): hey john, feel free to send me a test link to your new site. I can give you some constructive feedback. no charge.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:44 AM): fatfriar: Do you 'network' at all? I'm in a 'similar' business to yours, and I haven't had a professional Web site for 4 years (my bad!).. and I keep getting work!

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:45 AM): that would be most kind of you thanks

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:45 AM): Mark, do you want to ask something?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:45 AM): I guess I really should develop a site to market myself, but I haven't needed it yet!

mark (7/1/2002 9:46 AM): yes frank

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:46 AM): Peter I was thinking of joining bni but I can't afford the £400 at the moment

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:46 AM): Mark, you can call me Rob

mark (7/1/2002 9:46 AM): my question is first, any comments on design of openevents.com

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:46 AM): Rob, I have a quick question after Mark.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:47 AM): Yippee! I wasn't the only one with the Frank gaff, then!

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:47 AM): fatfriar: I don't think you'll find it's worth the money anyway, I'm afraid. You need to leverage networks like.. FrankelBiz right here ;-)

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:47 AM): Jimi, no I just can't get any :-(

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:48 AM): When I'm happy with my new site I'll do an intro, thanks guys

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:48 AM): I agree with Peter, networking is definitely the best way.

rob, sorry about that, (7/1/2002 9:48 AM): Entered the room.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:48 AM): John, also check out Neostructure.com and submit a profile. They are looking for subcontractors.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): mark, logo looks like all the other jumping people logos out there -- why doesn't your logo play up the URL more?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): I happen to be an awful networker in person. Online I do okay.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): I don't know if I'm going about it wrong, but all but one of my clients are real 'friends'. Sure, I met them from business, but almost every client turns into a friend with me! I attribute this to my success so far.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): I'm not that far from you, Peter. Just over in Streatham. :)

rob, sorry about that, (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): rob, my browser crashed several times, did you get my question?

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): thanks Anita

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): jimi: You mean me?

mark (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): Entered the room.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): I'm in Croydon myself

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:49 AM): Peter, me too!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): Repeat Mark. Please

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): I used to live in Warlingham, a few miles out of Croydon ;-) I live in Lincolnshire now though.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): Sorry, I'm awful with names. I meant close to John.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

mark (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): Tamra: what do you me logo play up on the URL?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:50 AM): Rob, may I ask since mark isn't answering?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:51 AM): Okay Anita. Go

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:51 AM): Peter, my only clients are friends so far

mark (7/1/2002 9:51 AM): rob: can you give me advice on how to attract traffic and subscriber on openevents.com?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:51 AM): Will people think more of me if I charge more?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:52 AM): Anita: Quick answer, yes.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:52 AM): Mark, gong there now....

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:52 AM): Mark, you've got a good name, but it's the smallest thing in the logo. Play up "open" with symbols perhaps.

mark (7/1/2002 9:52 AM): Anita: I am sorry my browser crashed earlier, can you wait a while?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:52 AM): Of course, that's why Rob charges $4000 an hour ;-)

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:53 AM): Is it ok to contact people off list if i need any more info?

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 9:53 AM): Mark...I'd kill the gradient and let your logo drive the imagery. It's very active and fun. Really gets lost as it stands.

mark (7/1/2002 9:53 AM): Tamra: got it, but what do you think about the logo design though?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:53 AM): Peter, you liar! It's $500 an hour on FrankelCall, conveniently located at http://www.RobFrankel.com/frankelcall.html ....operators are standing by.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:53 AM): Some of my competitors charge as much as $500 an hour. Since my niche is small biz, I thought that was waaaaay too much.

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:54 AM): I'm more than happy to be contacted

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:54 AM): off list, I mean

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:54 AM): Anita, gotta go where the market is. There are certain business realities, but price isn't one of them all the time

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:54 AM): Mark, I'm unclear as to what your site does.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:54 AM): thanks jimi

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): Why would I post my event there?

mark (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): rob: what is a good way to get people signup on my site and post their event though?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): If I stick to small biz, I will not be able to make a living.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): fatfriar: This isn't so relevant to work.. but remember to 'live below your means'. Since I started practicing LBYM, I've felt a lot better and spent far less money! (Find the cheap but good supermarkets, bounce balances around 0% credit cards, etc.)

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): I do hope I can help. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, but feeling that there are avenues I haven't explored yet. And I have got some amazing developers in India to sub-contract to, which makes me more competitive

mark (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): rob, it is a portal for events, like calendar events of the newspaper

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:55 AM): mark, it's OK, but doesn't say much about what you do. Make the background O thingy more of an open door, maybe. Colors are good, it's fun and friendly.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:56 AM): Mark, if I'm unclear as to why I should, don't you think others may have the same issue?

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 9:56 AM): Mark, check out Daypop.com which does the same thing.

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 9:56 AM): Maybe the home page needs to have a featured event at top center, rather than the sales pitch...

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:56 AM): Mark there's a serious flaw here....Events in the most generic sense are locally based. If this is an online event gig, then you need to make it clear from the outset.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 9:57 AM): Peter, dole=£73pw Mortgage = 576pm result = huge overdraft

mark (7/1/2002 9:57 AM): rob, yes I think your right, how do I solve this problem then?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:57 AM): I think something like this was covered in FrankelTips, re: Webinars.com?

mark (7/1/2002 9:58 AM): Tamra: that is a good point

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 9:58 AM): fatfriar: Yeah, it's expensive out there right now :-(

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:58 AM): The messaging here is really important mark. before you drive traffic there, you have to make your brand strategy very clear.

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 9:59 AM): Mark, you really should sub to FrankelTips. It's really cheap and I can give you more personalized attention.

mark (7/1/2002 9:59 AM): Anita: Daypop.com is current event, we are different, as community event

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 10:00 AM): mark, is there really a difference?

mark (7/1/2002 10:00 AM): rob: do you think a feature event on front page will be a good point?

mark (7/1/2002 10:00 AM): rob, how much is to subscribe?

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 10:00 AM): ACK, where does the time go. I want to thank our UK friends for sharing their afternoon with us. Thanks to all of you for a very productive session, too. I have to run, but I'll see you online!

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): Mark, keep in mind several event/calendar companies went bust in the dot-com boom. Timedance was one (we did work for them back in 99). Need to make sure people know *why* to use your system.

Anita (mysearchguru.com) (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): Bye for now!

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks for the invitation. I enjoyed this.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): mark: http://www.frankeltips.com/

fatfriar (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): Thanks everyone really helpful

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:01 AM): I think it's $25 now (that's for 52 issues, a whole year!)

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): by to all from Baltimore

Michael Cage (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): mark, before you can decide what will be useful on the front page you need to determine what you intend to communicate...and then decide based on how XYZ element enhances, detracts, or clouds that message.

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): fatfriar: See you next week with better news hopefully!

RobFrankel (rob@robfrankel.com) (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): Mark, just click the gold button at the top frame....

mark (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): Tamra: thanks, what do you think is the "why"

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): Nice to chat with some new folks and here some new issues! Have a good week everyone...happy 4th to the US folks.

fatfriar (7/1/2002 10:02 AM): Peter, hope so

Rob (robert.j.bennett@db.com) (7/1/2002 10:03 AM): by to all from Baltimore

Tamra (www.HCstudios.com) (7/1/2002 10:03 AM): Mark, make a list -- is it simplicity, ease of use, speed, size of market...list every possibility then narrow it down to one that is unique and you can brand. Good luck!

fatfriar (7/1/2002 10:03 AM): off to play with my site bye all

Steve (opinmarketing.com) (7/1/2002 10:04 AM): Good day from the sunny shoes of Lake Michigan, y'all.

mark (7/1/2002 10:04 AM): Tamra: thanks, can I have your email?

Peter Cooper (PerlGuy@boog.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:05 AM): Oh yeah, happy July 4th from me in the country that used to own you ;-) oops!

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:05 AM): Bye John

jimi (jimi@webilicious.co.uk) (7/1/2002 10:07 AM): I guess I'll be off as well. Bye to all, especially fellow Brits. :) Bye Peter