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Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:00 AM): Hey, everyone -- it's that time again! cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:01 AM): g'mornin' Rob Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:01 AM): Cynthia, you must be on the east coast, eh? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:01 AM): yep. Florida...near Daytona Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:02 AM): Mark, can you tell us about p-rposters? I keep looking for reliable PR people.... Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:02 AM): actually Rob ... the P-R stands for Peltier-Robson ... our family name ... Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:03 AM): We sell our own original motivational "poster" designs ... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:03 AM): Aha...so this is NOT a PR play, eh? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:03 AM): Okie doke....so who's up first today? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:06 AM): nice site mark...loads quickly :o) Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:06 AM): well ... since nobody else seems to be jumping in ... Rob ... is the p-rposters.com name confusing? Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:06 AM): Thanks Cynthia ... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:06 AM): Um, well, it had me going down the wrong trail....why isn't there something about motivation? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:07 AM): mind if I make 2 minor suggestions that might improve the user experience? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:07 AM): It's actually kind of typical, Mark: you branded this from the inside out, instead of the outside in.... Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:07 AM): when I started ... my ego was bigger than my common sense ... Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:07 AM): I'm always interested in suggestions ... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:08 AM): Happens all the time. People don't realize that "ego" is the #1 enemy of good business Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:08 AM): Hey, don't feel bad....did you read the papers about Michael Eisner and Disney? Talk about ego bringing down a business!! cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:08 AM): you might try breaking up your catalog into a few more pages. It's an awfully long scroll for one page. Also, the text links at the bottom of the page are hard to read w/ blue text on blue background Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:09 AM): I also own the domain name ... motivationposters.com ... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:09 AM): that's an EXCELLENT domain name mark -- do you have it pointing to your website? Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:09 AM): good suggestions ... Cynthia ... thanks Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:10 AM): not yet ... but I guess I really should ... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:10 AM): no problem :o) it's what I do (smile) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:10 AM): Oh yeah, Mark...you can do way better. MotivationPosters is way better...and where are the graphics? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:10 AM): depending on who you registered your domain name through, some registrars offer domain name pointers as a free service Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:11 AM): Here you are selling posters, and I don't even see any when I arrive! Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:11 AM): I actually left the graphics out because so many of our visitors said they were using slow connections on older browsers ... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:11 AM): if you optimize the images, it won't hamper the load time much at all cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:12 AM): also consider preloading some of your images. multiple catalog pages will help with the load time as well Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:12 AM): Entered the room. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:12 AM): Hey, my entire site is as basic HTML as it gets and NOBODY complains about slow download. And http://www.revengeofbrandx.com has a huge GIF (space-wise, not weight wise) Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:12 AM): And make them very small - thumbnails- and link to a larger picture Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:12 AM): how would I preload the images? Del (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): A poster graphic on the front page won't kill you...After all, how long does it take to load the first set of posters in a long scrolling fashion? Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): Entered the room. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): Very true. Optimize your images and it'll be a snap. But from a branding point of view, how credible is a poster company that isn't proud enough to show its posters (or at least one) on their home page? Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): Entered the room. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): mine is a *tad* slow, but the server is slow as well. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): mark -- a javascript would preload the images quite nicely. Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:13 AM): good point, Del Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:14 AM): I never really saw it that way, Rob ... it of course is right on the money ... thanks... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:14 AM): Cynthia, java will also slow the load, though. I'd sooner recommend showing ONE poster that's optimized. That's enough to get them into the site. Remember, 80% of all people who reach you home page never et any deeper. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:14 AM): Hi Jodie....you new here? WE let the new folks go first.... Del (6/18/2001 9:14 AM): Or send me 5 of your best designs and I'll use PhotoShop and fan them out for you (saved as a no background .GIF so you can use it anywhere). Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): Hi Marla...don't be shy about jumping in, either... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): Rob -- not java. Javascript. Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): thanks Del ... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): A simple javascript to preload the images wouldn't take long at all Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): Entered the room. Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:15 AM): Hi Rob - Actually, not new - I am of Virtual Attache fame... I am focusing on my new business to be started in a few months :-) Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:16 AM): Howdy Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:16 AM): Hi everyone! - oh I'm not shy...really :) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:16 AM): What can I do for you today? Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:17 AM): Just hoping to glean from the collective knowledge - no pressing issues for me today... yet ;-) thanks. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:17 AM): What is better sales people on commission or a referral program (same thing, smaller fee?) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:18 AM): Joel, if you can find them, sales people on commission are way more reliable. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:18 AM): They make their living selling all the time, not just when a lead happens to bop on through the door. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:18 AM): I just have to agree about the poster visibility - people tend not to buy a product unless they can see it - and I use thumbnails a lot for my firetruck site Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:18 AM): but hard to find I suppose? Del (6/18/2001 9:18 AM): Sales people are PROACTIVE, referral programs are REACTIVE. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:19 AM): The trick to finding a good salesperson is finding someone with a golden rolodex. Del is right. You want to hire someone who ENJOYs it. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:19 AM): Right, I agree. Is it acceptable to pay commission over the life of the project, as client pays? As opposed to upfront after contract's signed cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:19 AM): thumbnails are great. I like the way you did your price list Marla! I have a quote engine on my site, but I still have to fine tune it Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:20 AM): Joel, consider this: in almost EVERY business, the V.P. of Sales outearns V.P. Marketing and almost everyone else in the company except the CEO. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:20 AM): I wish there was a sales chat :-) obviously what I'm asking has little relation to branding but we have some deep thinkers here ;-) Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:20 AM): Since nobody wants to work our illustrious leader, here's one -- How can I brand a general thing like a business search engine? Del (6/18/2001 9:20 AM): Joel: The etailer chat is somewhat of a sales chat. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:21 AM): Frederick, the B2B sector is giving everyone a run for their money. I'm convinced that the task of a broad, yahoo engine for business is way out of the reach for a start up. Too huge and expensive. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:21 AM): aha, thanks Del! so do you folks suggest paying out commission, though? upfront or over a number of payments from client? Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:22 AM): Ideas for narrowing it down? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:22 AM): That leaves the niche thing, which is where most people are going, and leaving the meta searches to those who can query the niche search sites. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:22 AM): what about localized business directories? Del (6/18/2001 9:23 AM): I would think that ultimately, it depends on the length of your project. But, most salespeople will want their money NOW rather than 1/10th payments of the project duration. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:23 AM): I did a little work with ANX, which is the trade engine for GM, Ford and the auto industry. It's where you go to find auto stuff. Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:23 AM): Frederick, could it be a 'backend' or value-added service that business sites can offer to clients visiting their site? Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:23 AM): Searchking has those - my 1960 Area Directory is one such. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:23 AM): Cynthia, I really don't see the payout in localizing something like this. The web's greatest strength is in connecting people globally, outside their localized environment. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:24 AM): Del, but how do you prevent people from having you sign a contract for 100K with an associate so that you pay them 10% upfront and then the associate disappears? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:24 AM): In fact, to this day, I hardly get any business in my home town. All my clients come from the web space, way outside Los Angeles... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): Joel...hold on... Del (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): Hire a more trustworthy associate. ;-) Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): Rob, isn't that because you target a wide area? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): same here. I don't think I have a single client in my home state. Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): Rob, isn't that because you target a wide area? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:25 AM): An interesting thing, though, Fred....nobody has tied up all the little B2B guys yet. An aggregator there might do some damage Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:26 AM): No, Fred, I don't target geographically...I target psychographically for people who need my services, regardless where they are Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:27 AM): But if one was to target locally? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:27 AM): That's why the web works for me.....(on Google this week, listed #5 under "branding") Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:27 AM): Fred, why are you so interested in targeting locally? Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:28 AM): thanks Cynthia!! (sorry for the delay - had to take that call from my most difficult client (my husband)) cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:28 AM): grins @ Marla. no problem. I may be building a site soon for the law practice my husband works for...I know how it is Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:28 AM): Methinks you're using the wrong tool for the wrong job... Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:28 AM): Because I see the web doing both - local business AND world wide business. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:29 AM): actually where I am, businesses are finally wanting web sites (people are a little behind in this area) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:29 AM): Besides, didn't we tackle the 1960 project a few months ago? Wasn't the brand really about the 1960 area? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:29 AM): Marla, I see you're part of Women Designers...that's a POTENTIALLY really good tactic. Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:30 AM): E.g. I go on the web to look for stuff - let's say Branding expert. I see Rob Frankel and others, and one of those others is in my hometown,. I am likely to go local. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:30 AM): so I'm going to try to focus on them - but I don't know the best way not to overwhelm the small businesses Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:30 AM): Um, no....not necessarily. If that were true, I'd have no practice. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:31 AM): how are you marketing locally Marla? Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:31 AM): Frederick: the only time I'd choose local over another is if they were clearly the best choice. Locale has nothing to do with it, in my opinion, particularly in the case of a service that doesn't require face-to-face meetings. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:31 AM): But if you look for "the best branding expert on the planet" as a brand (That's the review quote I use), you're more likely to buy that brand, no matter where it is, over just any local branding guy. It's the brand thing again. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:31 AM): yes - I'm hoping to gain a lot of insight and networking with that group Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:32 AM): You'd still have your practice. Even better, because after talking with a local chap and finding out Rob knows better, I'd come to you as a more knowledgeable customer. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:32 AM): terry's right, Fred...you have to realize that once people go on to the web, they very quickly move off the "locals only" mentality. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:32 AM): right now I'm working with the chamber of commerce Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:32 AM): ACK! Chamber of Commerce! I have absolutely NO luck with those folks.... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:33 AM): and has that been effective Marla? Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:33 AM): well - three years ago they snubbed me - and got an out of town designer to handle their site Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:33 AM): Plus, Rob, anyone in LA looking world wide, seeing you are in their hometown, they'd come to you sooner. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:33 AM): Yeah, it's an old boys, small-minded group, I've found. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:34 AM): I haven't *joined* the chamber - only trying to get their business now Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:34 AM): Actually, Fred, I've found that "an expert is the guy who arrives with a suitcase". Most people feel that an expert has to be "brought in." Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:34 AM): I think people still like to deal with people. We web-folk are quite a minority, I believe. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:35 AM): Frederick: if a company has done their homework, they will choose the *best* for their needs, REGARDLESS of where they're located. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:35 AM): Hey, can we switch back to Joel's salesman topic? There's a lot of stuff there that we can all use.... Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:35 AM): I found out it wasn't worth paying the dues - but that was three years ago - hopefully businesses here will be a bit more open to the internet now Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:35 AM): I'll bet Rob's flown to a number of business meetings in the course of his contracts - am I right, Rob? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:36 AM): not sure I agree with you there Terry -- I've lost count of the number of 'We really love your work, but we don't hire offsite designers' letters I've received over the last 4 1/2 years Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:36 AM): Let me start out by saying I have a Participation program for my company. I use it to send to kids who want to intern as well as business people who want to "partner". Frederick (SmallBizSearch) (6/18/2001 9:36 AM): Terry, visiting their offices will make the local guy seem better. Not so much as to make a bad one good, but just a little edge to equals. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:36 AM): Actually, Terry, I don't step foot out of the house unless everything is paid up front and the airline tickets are in my hand....<G> Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:37 AM): I agree Cynthia - people like dealing with *people* Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:37 AM): Anyway, in the five years I've offered the incentive participation deal, NOBODY has ever taken me up on it. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:37 AM): But that's what I mean Rob -- if they think you're the best for their needs, they'll pay to have you there for a face-to-face meeting. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:38 AM): Little pieces of business feel warm and fuzzy with personal visits. Big business pays to get the job done. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:38 AM): I admit - I'm not very good at the sales end at all - I would really like to get someone to help promote my business that way Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:38 AM): Absolutely Terry. Just did a deal like that last week. This is what I do for my War Room Sessions. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:39 AM): But my point is that real salespeople are worth whatever they ask for, because they bring in great business that pays. They can't afford to waste their time with anything else. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:40 AM): amen to that Marla. I do alright with no local business. I've been lucky enough to find one very long term client that keeps the income coming in, but I sure could use more. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:40 AM): Marla: that was my problem too when I was focusing on Web design -- word of mouth paid the bills luckily, so I didn't have to actively go seeking business, but if I'd had to, I'm not sure how I would have handled it. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:40 AM): I know a guy who happened to be born to the right family. His social position put him in the position of knowing everyone in the toy and electronic gadget business. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:40 AM): He's a nice guy, not terribly bright. Good football player. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:40 AM): A major consumer electronics firm hired him on as VP Sales to get their product distributed into maybe six major chains. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:41 AM): Essentially, he made about ten phone calls and got the lines into every store. Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:41 AM): He's hired Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:41 AM): I think by the end of the deal, it came out to about $2 million per call for him Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:42 AM): wow Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:42 AM): THAT'S what you hire in a sales person. It's the "can-do" part, nothing more. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:42 AM): wow, I missed the start of the sales talk :-) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:43 AM): Most people don't realize that you pay guys like him big money to play golf and have lunch and go to ball games with their influential friends Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:43 AM): I posted the message to FrankelBiz on Sunday but had only one inquiry so far Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:43 AM): Joel, you gotta be quick or die here..... Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:43 AM): I said I'm looking for sales people on commission Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:44 AM): I wonder where else you can find good sales people who would be willing to work on commission Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:44 AM): So many of us are fed this "work hard and you'll get ahead" crap....it's true, but as I say in the book, "Don't be a schmuck". If you can hook into a guy like that -- with big connections -- take it and pay him whatever he wants. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:44 AM): Okay, another point about commission... Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:44 AM): I just realize that I'm pretty lousy as far as digging up leads. Yes, I did start to network. Leads clubs, Toastmasters, will try Rotary, Kiwanis, etc. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:45 AM): Quick story about my patented invention..... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:45 AM): When I got out of college, I invented the world's smallest camera stand. Called it Foto Pheet, the tripod for travel. Patented it. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:46 AM): Joel, I think online networking would take you a lot farther than local networking would. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:46 AM): It was also cheaper than any other camera tripod. It did great in mail order. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:46 AM): But it died at retail. Couldn't get distribution. Wanna guess why? Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:46 AM): my biggest question is if you pay sales people once contract is signed then they might come up with schemes where the client will not pay after contract is signed but they will get commission Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:46 AM): Terry, I'm starting to suspect otherwise, for some reason Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:47 AM): (Terry is correct, Joel) Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:47 AM): rob: why? Del (6/18/2001 9:48 AM): Joel: It might help to have a website up where people can get a better understanding of exactly what HiddenWorks can do. I'd be skeptical about an online business without an operating site. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:48 AM): Here's why it died at retail: the salespeople knew they could sell ONE tripod to a customer....they could make way more commission on a $24.95 tripod than on my BETTER $9.95 gadget. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:48 AM): My point: Commission means nothing. Dollars mean something. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:48 AM): Del: that will be up by June 30th, spoke to my designer today Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:49 AM): Rob: so you should have risen the price :-) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:49 AM): So you have to motivate people with dollars, not commissions. They need to know that by sending you business, they get a big check, not 15% of a $2,500 job. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:49 AM): so how do you prevent sales people from collecting commission and then the client defaulting on me w/o me receiving any money? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:49 AM): No, Terry. The mail order was better way to go. Bought my first house with the proceeds! Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:49 AM): Well - not necessarily risen in price - just choice of delivery and compensation Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): Joel, removing the risk is another aspect you properly bring up. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): unfortunately in my business, small businesses will hire a one-person show, but big businesses either have in-house depts., or they hire large design firms Del (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): Um. Non-cancelable contract. Contact an attorney in your state. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): Joel: once the contract is signed (at which point you pay commission), you have legal recourse against the client who reneges. Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING) Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:50 AM): so what would be fair compensation for a small biz like mine? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:51 AM): Joel, you have to entice the salesperson with the removal of ALL risk. You do that by tying up the client with a great contract. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:51 AM): I see Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:51 AM): Marla, that's not true. One of my main clients is a pretty substantial non-profit in the States (and I'm in Canada)... and one of my friends nailed a Sony contract in the UK because of his knowledge of the subject area Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:51 AM): so it's basically money now? DO you give up more on smaller projects? Like how much should I pay on that 2.5K project? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:52 AM): Marla, you have to look at your typical fee and see how much you can afford to pay someone to find you business. In the meantime, you and Joel should talk. You're a perfect match. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:52 AM): And he's also a home-based biz Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:52 AM): that's great - but don't you think that's the exception? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:52 AM): my problem is that I am nearly 100% house bound. I have a 6 yr old and a 2 month old. So onsite is not an option for me. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:52 AM): Joel: also consider performance-based incentives. Bring in X contract dollars, get a bonus of whatever Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:53 AM): Marla, what your email address? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:53 AM): I can tell you that the best salespeople are NOT out there searching for $2500 projects. They're out there searching for $500,000 projects and getting at least 10%. The big producers produce big. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:53 AM): Marla, I'm not sure -- it all comes back to who's the 'best' person for the job, I think. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:53 AM): well, I am offering 10% to people Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:53 AM): Cynthia, don't let that hold you back. I work out of a home office. Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): same here Cynthia - only three kiddies here Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): I look at it as lower overhead. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): as for finding clients online I'm really discouraged. everyone tells me they find clients through networking and word of mouth Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): Joel, what's your average project ticket? Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): I'm home-based, too, with one rugrat cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): but what do you do when the potential client says 'lets meet somewhere and discuss this...'? I can't exactly show up w/ the kiddies in tow Del (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): Same here. Home office. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:54 AM): that's why I'm trying to network locally Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): My average? 25-50K Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): then, Rob, I'd be stuck because I don't get $500k jobs (boy I'd like to!) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): I personally charge people to meet with them. If we do business, I apply that charge to the project. For that money, you can hire a sitter. Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): Joel: just 'hanging out' online isn't going to do it -- you need to show your expertise by contributing to conversations; showing people that you know of what you speak, etc. -- that's how I got almost every one of my design contracts Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): You can meet them in a restaurant. A hotel conference room. Or even at a Fijian suite with a conference room. Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:55 AM): Well, I do all kinds of projects small ones too, 2-5K but the past two have been fairly big Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:56 AM): Terry, you're dead on Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:56 AM): Terry, yes, I gotta get to your boards :-) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:57 AM): Joel, I find that people don't even wake up until you offer them four figures for a referral. THAT they remember. Anything else is too small... Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:57 AM): Joel: it takes effort -- sometimes substantial -- to nail that one contract that could bring in your payday for the next year. cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:57 AM): I think it's harder to land clients online than it used to be...too many teenage WYSIWYG gurus out there doing $25 websites... Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:57 AM): (TWO MINUTES) Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:57 AM): But who's talking referrals/ I thought we were talking motivated sales people Del (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): Cynthia. That's the difference between being on the web and being SEEN on the web. :-) Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): NO CYNTHIA....that's a branding issue. It's like people who say, "we do our own branding here" and I have to politely ask, "then why are you calling me?" Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): Ahh, but Cynthia... most of them end up looking for someone to FIX the $25 Web sites, once they figure out that they really didn't know what they were doing (even if they were good at putting together an 'okay' site) Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): Joel: how motivated would YOU be for a $250 payday? cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): I would love an opinion or two on my site, if anyone has a moment Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): yes - and those teenagers end up not wanting to be tied down with the maintenance Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:58 AM): We are, Joel....salespeople have to know they're going to get big bucks for their efforts. more than any of us would expect to pay. But that's how it gets done with sales people Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 9:59 AM): Unless, of course, that $250 would feed the kids for the month... Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 9:59 AM): Test message - have not seen one for a while... Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:59 AM): Where do you find sales people then? Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 9:59 AM): isales@adventive.com? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 9:59 AM): ACK!!!! Get RID of that AFFORDABLE crap! Del (6/18/2001 10:00 AM): It's like that hair stylist story.... They did hair cuts for $25.00. Great service, great people. Then a small shop opened across the street and started offering $5.00 haircuts. This, of course, took a bunch of business away. Their solution. A sign outside their store. "We FIX $5.00 haircuts." Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 10:00 AM): And redesign your home page, Cynthia....you're selling the whole category instead of wkdesign.com Jodie-ScoreBrowniePoints.com (6/18/2001 10:00 AM): Test message - have not seen one for a while... cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 10:00 AM): what's wrong w/ 'affordable'? Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): Uh oh, gotta run....Come back next week Cynthia, let's talk some more! Rob Frankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): See you guys online! cynthia_wkdesign.com (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): bye thanks Rob Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): Thanks for all the awesome info and advice everybody ... "see" you next week! Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): Bye Rob, thanks Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): Marla, what do you do? Joel Reymont (HiddenWorks) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): thanks rob! Marla (ikoncepts.com) (6/18/2001 10:01 AM): bye Rob - thanks!! |
