RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:00 AM): Bonjour mes amis -- c'est le temps por mon Free Clinic!

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:00 AM): enfin c ce qu'elle dis

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): <---bad French

angele (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): c koi ca???

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): Entered the room.

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): c'est le propriétaire du chat ;-)

angele (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): lol

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:01 AM): Morning, all!

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:02 AM): à mon avis c'est donc l'heure de les laisser, les US sont debout!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:02 AM): Oui. Je suis le Moderator. Le roi de "branding"

angele (6/11/2001 9:02 AM): yes sir

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): Hi Rob, thanks for that place ;)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): Merci.

angele (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): hello Rob

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): No problem.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): Boy, you two have been busy!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:03 AM): We'll be out in an hour or so.

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:04 AM): You welcome Rob

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:04 AM): You welcome Rob

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:04 AM): yes quiet busy, we are real chat box, the two of us

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:04 AM): Entered the room.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:04 AM): bonjour! il ya longtemps que j'ai parle francais!

Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): Good Morning...

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): Hi Mark & Pamela

Del (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): Entered the room.

Del (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): Morning folks.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): le roi :-)

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:05 AM): God Pam, you impress me, I must admit that your French is not that bad at all

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Vive le Roi!

Del (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Terry: I know it's early...but any takers on your new releases? :-)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Yeah, it's starting out as a bi-lingual chat....we're SO global....

angele (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): bye all

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Hey, what about my "le roi de branding" line? Doesn't that count?

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): kissou ma pti angéel, à demain? oki?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Bye angele! Love that name

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:06 AM): Del: Yes! I've had five orders this morning already! :-)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:07 AM): Congrats Terry!

Del (6/11/2001 9:07 AM): Sweet!

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:07 AM): Thank you your highness :) I used to do translation services when I was fluent

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:07 AM): Thanks, Rob! :-) I'm so excited about this -- finally it seems to be coming together!

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:08 AM): My numbers are nowhere near what Del's managed to achieve with his targeted banner ad last week, but hey! It's a start! :-)

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:08 AM): you're not that bad at all believe me Pam

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:08 AM): One thing to remember is to keep up the momentum. Very often, you get a burst of sales up front, from the pent up demand.

Del (6/11/2001 9:08 AM): Terry: Yeah. But my ticket average is gobs higher. Unless you have an $800 songbook. ;-)

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:08 AM): Thank you!

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): you're welcome Pam

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): So if you see a slight dip after a week or two, don't let up. At the very least you know you have product acceptance, and that's great

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): Rob, given that this is an album/songbook of Christmas songs, I honestly didn't expect that anyone would be thinking about the 'holiday season' yet -- but I sent out a 'free shipping' incentive to all my list subscribers, and they're taking me up on it.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): Ok I am trying to keep up here but I think I came in the middle of someone's thought

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): LOL, Del -- don't I wish I DID have an $800 songbook!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:09 AM): There you go. Nice shootin' Terry.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:10 AM): Can you bring me up to speed on what we're talking about?

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:10 AM): Thank you, Mr. Branding King. I appreciate it. :-)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:10 AM): Pam, hold on a bit. Terry: it does remind me of a client I had that put CD's into the hard Rock Cafes.....

mgkimsal (michael@tapinternet.com) (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): Entered the room.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): Pamela: I issued my first CD (instrumental versions of Christmas songs) and accompanying songbook last week. Announced it to my mailing list, and am getting some bites (sales).

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): ...to make the margins higher, they pressed the regular CD with 22K gold CD's and charged $10 per disc more!

Del (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): Terry: So what's the next project, A disc and companion songbook 2 (continuing the Christmas line) or something for, say, a certain age group or theme?

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): Wow, Rob -- that's a neat idea!

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:11 AM): Ah! congratulations Terry!

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): Del: I'm working on CD/songbook #2 right now -- traditional kids songs this time (target audience is mainly schools/preschools)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): I love CD stuff. Great perceived value, low cost. big margins

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): With any luck, it will be ready within the next 2-3 weeks.

Moi ;-) (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): I have to go, bye all!

Del (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): WOW!..Really picking up the pace this time, eh?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:12 AM): Only enemy is of course, MP3 and CD-burners/Napstering

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:13 AM): Rob, absolutely -- my cost is incredibly low for these; and beats the heck out of buying from US distributors, paying horrific exchange, and little profit left over.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:13 AM): Bye!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:13 AM): Del, where were you targeting your banners to get such success?

Del (6/11/2001 9:13 AM): mortgagemag.com/molo.htm is one of the pages.

Jerry (6/11/2001 9:13 AM): Entered the room.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:14 AM): Rob, I don't believe that's an issue here -- a good portion of the songs are my own (adaptations of public domain works) and the sheet music isn't readily available; nor are they songs that they'd be likely to find recorded anywhere.

Del (6/11/2001 9:14 AM): The funny thing that I'm troubled with is why I'm getting a higher percentage of conversions from those coming from the banner compared to normal traffic.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:14 AM): Hi Jerry

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:15 AM): Del, you kidding? Banner driven traffic means they're really interested in clicking over to your site.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:15 AM): What it may mean is that your "normal" traffic is throwing out the wrong cues.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:15 AM): plus, in the songbook I included some pageant recitals/skits (that aren't available on the site) for extra incentive.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:15 AM): I'm not sure what the protocols are here, but I was wondering if anyone wants to talk about brainstorming ideas (I'll explain) - or do we have one convo going at a time?

Del (6/11/2001 9:16 AM): I think it's because my market is starving for these kind of products and that the vast majority of loan originators don't yet know I exist. (Not enough press/print coverage).

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:16 AM): Go ahead, Pam...if Del is finished.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:16 AM): Del -- possibly because you've just really hit your niche audience

Del (6/11/2001 9:16 AM): Rob: I'm always done before I start. :-)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:16 AM): Pam -- we try to keep one at a time. But you jump in after Del

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:17 AM): Oh ok I will wait my turn! Never been in one of these before :)

Del (6/11/2001 9:17 AM): I'm done. I'm done. :-)

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:18 AM): Entered the room.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:18 AM): Hello everyone!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:18 AM): GO for it PAM! You're on! (Cue orchestra music).....And now, heeeeeere's Pam!!!!

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:18 AM): <-- gets in line after Pamela

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:19 AM): Ah, ok, well, I have been thinking lately about my business, and how I am basically offering what a ton of other people are offering

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:19 AM): hehehehe, nice intro!

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:19 AM): I would like to do something different, differentiate myself somehow (doesn't everybody)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:19 AM): So far so good

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:19 AM): But I'm not sure how - I know Joel and I were discussing this briefly

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:20 AM): Pamela: what's your line of business?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:20 AM): I don't expect people to tell me exactly what to do, but I'm more interested in how I can come up with my own ideas...

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:20 AM): Details.....?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Web programming, design, marketing, PR

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Just like so many others.... :)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Do you own heliowire.com?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): I use 2 freelancers as I need them, so mostly it is just me

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Yes I do

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Pamela, I recommend a "Creative Whack on the Side of the Head", it's a book + set of cards for brainstorming.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Pamela -- brainstorming is the *best* way. Sometimes a conversation can help to trigger a hidden thought or idea and get you going on your way.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:21 AM): Okay, let me go there for a sec...

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:22 AM): I am in process of making it a formal business in the legal sense - LLC, etc.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:22 AM): It helps, too, to have people offering feedback who aren't involved in your line of work, because they can see things in a different light.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:22 AM): ok, then I've come to the right place!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:22 AM): ACK! I got hit with a Pop up window. Right in my face!

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:23 AM): Yes, I have had mixed reviews on the pop up

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:23 AM): Some people like it some don't (I take it you don't!)

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:23 AM): I'm not a fan of them -- will usually exit right out on pop-up, or at the VERY least, close it without reading a bit of what's there.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:23 AM): Holy cow, Pamela, we've got BIG problems here.....

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:23 AM): Joel, can I find that on Amazon?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): Uh oh!!! What??

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): Pamela, yes, that's where I bought it. There's a book and the cards, sold separately

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): Pamela: once I close the pop-up window, all I get is a page that says "enjoy your visit" -- that tells me nothing

Del (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): Pamela: Just one thing to point out...It's much easier on us when you provide an in-depth question rather then a "what is the purpose of life" kinda stuff. Are you focusing on any particular customer base? Historically, what type of business earns you the most income? Where do you want to take the business? How are you oompeting/differentiating yourself?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): First, you've got a huge pop up window that opens even before your home page does.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:24 AM): I recommend Rob as well... hehehe :-) for questions on how to differentiate yourself

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): Then, as Terry says, nothing happens in the big window.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): what's the purpose of that?

mgkimsal (michael@tapinternet.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): Rob, the popup IS the site, AFAICT

mgkimsal (michael@tapinternet.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): It's a designer thing, to control the size of the window - do a popup to a 'defined' size

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): Which means that I now have blown through two bad experiences before I have even gotten to see what you or how you do it.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): Yikes! I've never had so many people dislike it, I've gotten a lot of positive feedback before today.....

mgkimsal (michael@tapinternet.com) (6/11/2001 9:25 AM): With no resize on the window, the designer knows how big the window is.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): I would humbly suggest not talking about popups. there's a huge discussion going on

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): one of the advertising lists about that

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): Yes, exactly, it was to control the design

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): rob, I know you are on it.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): Pamela, the truth is your best friend. People may like it, but we're more concerned about what works -- or what's sabotaging you.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): Ok I will try and answer everyone's questions:

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): Del: customer base is small to medium size business

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:26 AM): I think it's called internet advertising or something.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:27 AM): Before we get into pop ups, they're fine -- but you've got to use them judiciously.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:27 AM): Pamela: it's pretty impossible to control the design globally; there are too many browser types, too many other factors to consider (i.e. what settings a person uses in their browser, whether they are disabled and surf via one of those voice boxes, etc.)

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:27 AM): Oh I hear you Rob, I guess I was just surprised b/c I have gotten a lot of good feedback so far. That's all. I am certainly happy to hear constructive criticism

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:28 AM): I strongly suggest, though, that a pop-up as the FIRST thing they see should be tiny and only used as a quick update. That's what I do at http://www.revengeofbrandx.com

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:28 AM): Ok the rest of your questions are gone from my window Del

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:28 AM): In my opinion, you should try and design it to be as browser-friendly as possible, and then let the 'design fall where it may' so to speak.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:28 AM): Um, I think I remember you asking about what brings me the most business, and that would be online education

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:28 AM): Otherwise, I use pop ups as a goodbye window, to make sure people know not to miss out on stuff. The smaller the pop up the less resentment you get.

Del (6/11/2001 9:29 AM): Pamela: Feedback from whom? Fellow designers? Of course THEY'LL like it. But guess what? Your customer, for the most part, won't be as sophisticated and WILL, like me (a past website designer), close a pop-up window IMMEDIATELY.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:29 AM): Ok, that is a good suggestion - My thought process at the time was choosing between having my design messed up (and therefore look bad as a business since that is what I do), and having the pop up

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:29 AM): No, not fellow designers actually

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:29 AM): Whoa, folks....let me ask Pam a question: Why the name heliowire?

Del (6/11/2001 9:30 AM): You can do what you do with a pixel-size specified table, methinks.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:30 AM): I actually used NameRazor

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:30 AM): then just asked my colleagues for their input on some of the names it gave me

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:30 AM): Pamela: can you not force the layout within a table format, but leave people with control of their navigation buttons, etc.?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:31 AM): Hold up people....let's talk brands for a second

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:31 AM): Okay, so why heliowire?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:31 AM): I'm not sure what you're asking terry.....

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:31 AM): branding, yes!

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:31 AM): differentiation!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:32 AM): Pam, let's get on to the branding issue....why heliowire?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:32 AM): Well, for one thing that got the most "votes" - but mostly because of the science/tech theme to the name

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): It was, to be honest, a quick route to take

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): Okay, this where the root of the problem is. NOTHING happens with votes when you're branding.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): branding is about leading people where you want them to go.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): Because I needed to get my site up and running (KI had a ton of people wanting to see some of my portfolio online)

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): I wasn't relying only on votes, that's not it

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:33 AM): If YOU don't know why you named the brand heliowire, how can you expect anyone else to?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:34 AM): The name of the brand should communicate something about the brand. by naming it a name that even YOU can't define, you can see how others would be confused by it.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:34 AM): But I also felt that I didn't have time (and I was doing this all myself - I could not pay my freelancers for this)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:34 AM): Why not just use your own name? At least then they'd know something about the person behind the site.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:35 AM): Well, I didn't think the name was as important as getting my portfolio online - not having it there was hurting me the most

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:35 AM): ESPECIALLY because you do so much yourself!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:35 AM): Well, now you can see that it wasn't the thing hurting you most. Now, you're actually hurting yourself by confusing them....

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:36 AM): Here's the thing Pam: the brand dictates everything else. If you CAN attach meaning to heliowire, then that's where you start.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:36 AM): Hm. I've had people ask me what the name means, but to be honest no one has ever said they were confused or that it mattered at all. Was I missing something? Were they?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:37 AM): ...but that's the problem with many fictitious names. Sometimes they work. One of my best fictitious names was OpTel (you can see it in my case studies) because it communicated what we were, at least in a general sense

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:37 AM): Pam, there's always a hidden agenda with people. They tell you what they think you want to hear, they don't admit to what they really think or don't know.....very unreliable

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:37 AM): Are you saying I should change the name now?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:38 AM): If, on the other hand, you choose to lead and educate these people every step of the way, they will be happy to learn.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:38 AM): Oh I know that (I'm not a teenager anymore, lol :)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:38 AM): I'm saying either spell out what heliowire means and make that link to your brand philosophy, or, yes, change it now to something that's compelling and meaningful to your users.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:39 AM): Hm. What about the announcements I've already made for the site?

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:39 AM): how can Pamela differentiate herself, though?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:39 AM): So...why isn't it using your real name?

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:39 AM): changing the name now make me look even worse?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:40 AM): Screw the announcements. Better to change now while it's still relatively cheap. The longer you wait, the more it will cost in time, money and pride.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:40 AM): Pamela, you could have a second domain name, and leave heliowire.com up (your Web host should be able to mirror one site to the other; called aliasing)

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:40 AM): So if someone types the URL heliowire.com, they are actually directed to your new domain name

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:40 AM): I thought my real name is boring for a business

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:41 AM): Pam, the people here today are probably more typical of the uses who would give you business. you saw their reactions....you want to keep losing people after working that hard to get them to your site?

Del (6/11/2001 9:41 AM): Reinventing yourself, your niche, your business is much easier then constantly questioning your existing business worth. :-)

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:41 AM): Actually, I think heliowire is a neat name -- but it needs a 'connection' to something

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:41 AM): Real names are a lot more credible...and terry is right. As I sunset frankel-anderson.com, it still inks to Robrankel.com. In fact they BOTH point o the same page.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:42 AM): Just seeing the name gives me absolutely no clue as to what it is or what you do -- if there were something on your site that spoke to the connection, I might at least remember it. Otherwise, I'm not sure I would.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:42 AM): Yes, Del is right. The stress of constantly trying to re-route the river is much harder than going with the flow.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:42 AM): I disagree that real names are necessarily more credible

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:42 AM): although I agree with your comments on the name I chose

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:43 AM): Ok, so to back up, and forget about brainstorming,,,

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:43 AM): It's funny -- clients who pay fees want to know who's throat they can choke when things go wrong. It helps to have a real name for that.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:43 AM): I have a question... What do you do if your target market might be right but your timing is wrong? I chose to focus on designers but they are in a huge slump now. I cannot afford to sit there and wait for them to recover.

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:43 AM): I have a question -

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): Look at Joel's brand -- which I love: hiddenworks.com. He supplies back end programming for designers that they just bolt on, seamlessly.

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): Entered the room.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): but it's not bringing me any money.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): Joel: brainstorm :-)

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): I have a great penniless brand

pamela-heliowire.com (6/11/2001 9:44 AM): But most businesses aren't someone's real name and clients know whose throat to choke...

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:45 AM): Joel, you're next.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:45 AM): Most businesses have horrible brands, which is why so many struggle.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:45 AM): Joel: why can't you shift gears and target the 'mom and pop' stores? 'Little business folks' who want a Web presence/

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:45 AM): that's why I'm in the business

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:46 AM): Give them the tools to create their own sites: inexpensively, efficiently, easily.

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:46 AM): Joel, not all designers are in a slump. I'm a designer and have many colleagues who are buzzing right along, just like myself. I just entered so I didn't catch what your business is, though. Do you mind enlightening me?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:46 AM): Joel, there are several issues here for you, but the main one is that your expectations are too high. branding is a constant effort. Keep seeding the brand.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:47 AM): You may jus not be spreading your net wide enough, too. Also, as terry mentioned, you may not be looking at the right markets.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): check

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): OR... target a specific small business market and try and hone in on it. One example, though pretty well 'fed' right now, would be (rare) booksellers who need tools to create their online catalogs for placement on the various bookselling sites.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): Joel how many discussion lists are you participating in?

Joel (joelr@hiddenworks.com) (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): Entered the room.

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): Joel, do you belong to some discussion lists with designers? That's often a great way to network.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:49 AM): Or the EBay type people who are always looking for a tool to help with their uploads (again, pretty well seeded, but it gives you the idea)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:50 AM): Are you on lists like I-Design? (Which Shirley moderates)

Joel (joelr@hiddenworks.com) (6/11/2001 9:50 AM): apologies folks I fell off for a while. Shirley, I provide bolt-on web backends to designers like you

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:50 AM): (TEN MINUTE WARNING)

Joel (joelr@hiddenworks.com) (6/11/2001 9:50 AM): I suppose I'm not casting my net wide enough if I'm missing designers like Shirley

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:50 AM): Joel, Are you on lists like I-Design? (Which Shirley moderates)

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:51 AM): Ah, I see that now. I just went to your site, too.

Joel (joelr@hiddenworks.com) (6/11/2001 9:51 AM): As for Terry's advice, I'm thinking of tackling money managers, hedge funds. Not as backend developer, though.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:51 AM): EVERYONE: you should devote at least fifteen minutes EVERY DAY to placing your brand SOMEWHERE NEW on the web.

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:51 AM): Yup. I'd be happy to connect you with colleagues. I'll need more details (you can send me an email).

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:52 AM): I'm on 6-7 design lists but not on shirley's

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:52 AM): Joel, you're in danger of broadening your brand again. Don't try to be everything to everyone.

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:52 AM): Maybe you already have a good sig tag, too, so everyone sees what you do whenever you send an email?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:52 AM): Hey, I want to make one thing very clear: EVERYONE has bills to pay. When I changed from advertising to focus on branding, it cost me a fat six figures in lost income. But it worked.

Joel Reymont (6/11/2001 9:52 AM): I had a great career on Wall St. as a consultant in equity finance technology, I'm thinking of tackling that as an extra source of revenue. I was a specialist in securities lending and prime brokerage

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:53 AM): Consider subscribing, and be sure to send in some email with your sig tag. Great exposure -- 12,000+ on the list

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): Shirley, you're up to 12,000? Wow!

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): I agree that you have to specialize, can't broaden too far.

Shirley, I will. do you have instructions on your site? I have a great sig too "silent partner in backend development" (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): Entered the room.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): Rob: that's so very true. When I first branched out on my own, I just about lost my house to foreclosure -- but made my way through it thanks to tenacity and an absolute sheer will that I wasn't going to fail (plus some pretty nice blessings from somewhere up above!)

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): Amazing, isn't it?! I just checked the other day. We just had our 1-year anniversary and 100th issue.

Shirley, I will. do you have instructions on your site? I have a great sig too (6/11/2001 9:54 AM): Rob, I'm not gonna be doing it under the HW brand. I had another one before that ;-) Lendix (for securities lending)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): On my tapes (okay, a plug, I admit) I spend a whole hour on The Bridge to Leadership.....this is exactly how it happens.

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): Congrats, Shirley!

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): Uh oh, Joel you got hit by the server....

Shirley - skdesigns.com (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): yes, there's a link right on the main page of skdesigns.com - right side of the page under What's New

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:55 AM): My expectations were set properly. I expected to take the hit. My wife, of course, did not.....OUCH.

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): rob what do you mean I got hit?

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): So rob, can you run two brands at the same time?

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): do you need two separate companies for that?

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): Incidentally, we now have FOUR free clinics a week....

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): Rob, how long did it take you to turn it around (in my case, I'm going into year 3 and should see a good profit this one)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:56 AM): Yes, Joel if you run them separately. Of course!

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:57 AM): hmm... right. just as soon as I wrestle that lendix.com domain back from network solutions :-)

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:57 AM): Terry, from beginning to profitability, about 24 months. Real pain. but worth it.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 9:58 AM): (TWO MINUTES)

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 9:58 AM): I agree entirely. I'm the happiest I've ever been from a career perspective.

Joel Reymont1 (6/11/2001 9:58 AM): Entered the room.

Rob's tapes are very useful. I did start a mailing list for designers, etc. to discuss business issues (6/11/2001 9:59 AM): The number of clinics shall pick at 7

Great discussion, Rob. Thank you! (6/11/2001 9:59 AM): Entered the room.

Mark P-R (www.p-rposters.com) (6/11/2001 9:59 AM): Great chat this morning ... thanks for letting me listen in 8-)

Terry (terry@kididdles.com) (6/11/2001 10:00 AM): Thanks for a great chat, Rob (as usual!)

Rob, I'm sorry for screwing up the end of the clinic but this thing is not letting me set my name properly :-( Thanks Rob! (6/11/2001 10:00 AM): Entered the room.

RobFrankel (Rob@RobFrankel.com) (6/11/2001 10:00 AM): Excellent chat today! I gotta go!